Ignorance of the Scriptures

This conversation that I had with an arminian (synergistic) christian goes to show the ignorance of the average churchgoer within american evangelicalism. This dialogue took place between my wife, myself, and the arminian. It surprises me to see that whenever predestination or election is brought up, everyone who opposes it is suddenly a theologian. Observe as I lay out the conversation...

[My wife has just brought up Romans 9 and how God shows mercy on whom He wants to show mercy, and hardens whom He wants to harden]

Arminian: "What about John3:16? It really is that simple folks!"

My Wife: "It's not that simple. You are taking that verse out of context. The author(and the inspiring One) of John 3:16 also wrote what Jesus said in John 17:9 "I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." and wrote what Jesus said in John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." And once again wrote what Jesus said in John 6:64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." So do you really think he means "the world" in John 3:16?"

Arminian: "Weren't you the one who said something about taking Scripture out of context? John 17:9 is Jesus praying for his disciples. In John 6:44 'the Father draws them to me." Jesus is speaking meaning God, not people plays the most active role in salvation. When someone CHOOSES to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior, he or she does so only in response to the urging of God's Holy Spirit. God does the urging; then WE decide whether or not to believe. As for John 6:64&65, the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life; without the work of the Holy Spirit we cannot see our need for new life. All spiritual renewal begins and ends with God. He reveals truth to us, lives within us, and then enables us to respond to that truth. Yes, I do KNOW HE means the WHOLE WORLD!! I recommend that you read Colossians 2:6-23, it starts with, "And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord..." Happy reading. May you find freedom and truth!"

[Colossians 2:6-23 (the passage she referenced) "Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. 16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. 20If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22(referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh."]


Me: "Yes context is key, so let me show you this theme in context. Read the entire chapter. Jesus continues this theme of the elect being given to Jesus by the Father in vs. 24. Just as the disciples were chosen, so are the rest of the elect. And this time He is not just praying for His disciples (vs. 20). Also, you affirm my point when you say God is the active party in our salvation. Then you seem to switch back to man being in the active position of salvation by their choice. Which is it? Have you ever read Romans 9? Paul specifically says that salvation is not by our choice but God's. You also affirm my point when you say that God ENABLES us to respond to the gospel. That is my position. You seem to side with me as far as that statement goes. It is because we as humans are so sinful that we do not seek after God (Romans 3:9-20). That God, by His marvelous love and grace, chooses to save anybody is awesome. I would encourage you to study the book of Romans and would appreciate it if you knew exactly what the other side was saying before you go off relating it to a "philosophy and empty deceit" (col 2)."

I got no reply after this.

We clearly see the ignorance of this person. She clearly doesn't know what calvinism is except that it involves election and Christ not dying for the whole world but yet she is willing to argue and insult by saying that we calvinists believe a "deceitful doctrine." This is the kind of unintelligent argumentation that is coming from arminianism and the "evangelical" churches of today.